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克对通神学者的谈话

TALKTO THEOSOPHISTS
对通神论者的讲话

31STMARCH, 1934
1934331

AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
于新西兰,奥克兰


Friends, I will just say a few words before I attempt to answer some of thesequestions.
朋友们,在我试着回答提问中的几个问题之前,先说几句话。


First of all, I should like to say thatwhat I am going to say should not be taken in a partisan spirit. Most of youhere are probably Theosophists, with certain definite ideals and ideas,with certain definite teachings, and you think I hold contrary views and makeout that I belong to another camp with other ideals and beliefs. Let us ratherapproach the whole thing from the point of view of discovery rather than tryingto say, "We believe in this, and you don't; therefore, we are upholders ofcertain ideas which you are trying to destroy." Now that spirit, that kindof attitude, indicates opposition rather than understanding; that you havesomething which you desire to protect, and if anyone questions what you have,you immediately will say that he is attacking or I am attacking. It is not atall my intention to attack anything, but rather to help you to discover if whatyou are upholding is true. If it is true, then no one can attack it, and itdoes not matter if anyone attacks it, if what you hold is real; and youcan only find out what is real by considering it, not protecting it, not beingon the defensive.
首先,我想说的是,不应该以一种偏颇、盲目的态度去对待我将要说的话。今天来到这里的多数人可能是通神论者,有着某种特定的理想和观念,接受过特定的教诲,并且你们认为我持相反的观点,从而得出结论,我属于秉持其他理想和信仰的阵营。请让我们从发现真相的视角去处理整个事情,而不说“我们相信这个,而你不相信;因而我们是你试图诋毁的某种观念的持有者”。那种精神,那种态度,意味着对立而不意味着了解:你拥有某种你渴望保护的东西,因而如果质疑你所拥有的那种东西,你马上就会说他在攻击或我在攻击。我的意愿根本不是要做任何攻击,而是要帮助你们发现你们所秉持的是否是真实的。如果它是真实的,那么没有任何人能够攻击它,如果任何人攻击它,那也构不成问题,如果你所秉持的是真实的;并且你只能通过斟酌,而不是通过保护,不是站在防卫的立场上,去发现什么是真实的。
     
You know, wherever I go Theosophists ask me, as do other organizations, tospeak to them; and Theosophists with whom I have lived for so long have takenup this unfortunate attitude, that I am attacking them, destroying their petbeliefs, which they must protect at all costs, and all the nonsense of it.Whereas, I feel if we can really consider together, reason together, and seewhat we have in our hands that we want to protect, then instead of belonging toany one particular camp, or particular section of thought, we shall naturallyunderstand what is true; and that which is true has no party. It is neitheryours nor mine. So that is my attitude in addressing you, and in talkinganywhere: to help you to discover - and I mean this honestly - if what you holdis really lasting, or a thing that you have built up out of conceit, out of self-protection,self-preservation, out of search for security. Such things have no value thoughthey may wear the clothing of surety, of certainty and of wisdom.
你们知道,无论我走到哪里,通神论者要求我——就像其他组织要求我一样——对他们讲话;而与我一起生活了很长时间的通神论者,采取了这种不幸的态度:我在攻击他们,摧毁他们宠爱的信仰——他们必须不惜一切代价保护的信仰——及诸如此类的毫无意义的东西。然而我感觉,如果我们能够真正地一起考虑、一起推理,看清我们想要保护的、握在我们手中的是什么,那时,不再属于任何特别的阵营或思想流派,我们会自然地理解什么是真实的。真实之物没有党派之分;它既不是你的也不是我的。
所以,这就是我对你们讲话,以及在任何地方讲话的态度:帮助你们去发现——我是真诚的——你们所秉持的是真正永恒的,还是一种你们从欺骗、自我保护、寻求保障出发建立起来的东西,尽管这种东西可能披着肯定、确定和智慧的外衣,但它们没有什么价值。
     
Now, sirs, I would like to say that, to me, truth has no aspects. We are in thehabit, especially Theosophists I think, and some others besides, of saying thattruth has many aspects: Christianity is one aspect, Buddhism another, Hinduismanother, and so on. This merely indicates that we want to stick to our ownparticular temperament and our own prejudices, and be tolerant to otherpeople's prejudices. Whereas, to me, truth has no aspects; it is one, and thatwhich is complete, whole, has no aspects. It is not like a light with manycoloured lamps. That is, you place coloured lamps over that light, and then tryto be tolerant to a red light if you are a green light, and invent thatunfortunate word tolerance, which is so artificial, a dry thing that has novalue. Surely you are not tolerant to your brother, to your children. Whenthere is real affection there is no tolerance, so, it is only when the hearthas withered, that we talk about tolerance. I, personally, do not care what youbelieve or do not believe, as my affection is not based on belief. Belief is anartificial thing; whereas affection is the innateness of things, and when thataffection withers, then we try to spread brotherhood through the world and talkabout tolerance, the unity of religions. But where there is real understandingthere is no talk about tolerance.

既然这样,先生们,我想要说的是:对我来说,真理没有方面。我们——我认为特别是通神学者,以及其他某些人——习惯于说,真理拥有很多方面:基督教是一方面,佛教是另一方面,印度教是再一方面,等等。这只是表明,我们想要坚持我们自身的特质和我们自身的偏见,并且对其他人的偏见持宽容态度。然而,对我来说,真理没有方面;它是一,是完全的、完整的,没有方面性的真理。它不是像由各种颜色的灯泡发出的光线。也就是说,你将带颜色的灯泡放在那种光中,然后你努力对红色的光保持宽容,如果你是一种绿色的光,发明出那个不幸的词“宽容”——这个词如此做作,是一个没有价值的、枯燥无味的词。你肯定不宽容你的兄弟、你的孩子。当存在真正的爱时,不存在宽容;因此,只有当心灵枯萎时,我们才谈论宽容。我,作为个人,不关心你信什么或不信什么,因为我的爱不是基于信仰。信仰是一种人为的东西;而爱是事物的固有本质,而当那种爱凋谢时,我们试图在全世界推行兄弟之爱,谈论宽容和宗教的统一。而在存在真正理解的情况下,宽容就免谈了。
     
Understanding does not lie through books. You can be students of books for manyyears, and if you do not know how to live, then all your knowledge withers; ithas no substance, no value. Whereas, one moment of full awareness, fullconscious understanding, brings about real, lasting peace; not a thing that isstatic, but that peace which is continually in movement, unlimited.

理解不是来自书本。你可能多年钻研书本,但如果你不知道怎样生活,那么你全部的知识就会枯萎,就失去了实质和价值。而一刻的完全觉察——完全的有意识的理解——会带来真正的、持久的和平;这种和平不是一种固定不变的事物,而是处于持续的运动中,是没有局限的。
     
Now I wonder how I am going to answer all these questions.

现在,我怀疑我将如何回答这些提问。
     
Question: Can a ceremony be helpful, and yet be not limiting?
提问:仪式可能对人有所帮助,不对人产生局限吗?
     
Krishnamurti: Do you really want to go into the question, or do you just wantto deal with it superficially? How many of you really perform ceremonies? Ithas become, unfortunately, a subject over which you quarrel in the T. S.
克里希那穆提:你们确实想深入探究这个问题,还是,你们只是想肤浅地讨论一下?你们中多少人举行过仪式?不幸的是,这成了你们在通神学会争论的话题。


Now what is a ceremony? Not the putting onof a tie, cleaning yourself, eating, or the appreciation of beauty - because Ihave discussed with people, and they have trotted out all these arguments. Theysay, "We go to church because there is so much beauty in it. It is ourself-expression. Is not putting on a suit and cleaning your teeth, is that nota ceremony?" Surely this is not ceremony. The appreciation of beauty isnot ceremony. You do not attend church or attend a ceremony to self-express. Soceremony as you use it has a very definite meaning. A ceremony, as far as I canmake out, according to your own usage of that word, is where you either hope toadvance spiritually through its efficacy, or you attend it in order to spreadin the world spiritual forces. Shall we limit it to that, and not bring inextraneous arguments? Is that not so? Ceremony is only applicable where you arespreading spiritual force, and in which you hope to gain spiritual advancement.Let us examine these two things.
那么,什么是仪式呢?不是带上领结、沐浴净身、掰饼或欣赏美——我和人们讨论过,他们提出过这些论据;他们说,“我们到教堂参加礼拜,因为其中存在很多美。仪式是我们的自我展现,不是穿上礼服、刷刷牙。那难道不是一种仪式吗?”当然这不是仪式:对美的欣赏不是仪式;你去教堂参加礼拜或参加某种仪式不是要自我展现。因此,当你使用“仪式”这个词时,它的意义是非常确定的:就我所理解到的,按照你对这个词的使用,通过仪式,你要么希望通过其功效取得灵性方面的进步,要么你出席它是为了在世俗中传播灵性的力量。
——让我们在这个限定的范围内进行讨论而不引入其他的争论,好吗?——难道不是这样吗?只有当你在传播灵性力量以及你希望在其中获得灵性进步的情况下,你才会举行仪式。让我们检查一下这两件事情。
     
First of all, when you say you are spreading spiritual force in the world, howdo you know that you are doing this? Either it must be based on authority,acceptance of someone else's edicts or precepts, or you feel that you arespreading it. So let us put away the authority of another, because that ischildish. If someone else merely says, "Do that", and you do it, thenthere is no value; it does not matter who it is. Then we merely reduceourselves into children, and become the instruments of authority. Thereforethere is no vitality in our actions. We are merely imitative machines.

首先,当你说你在世俗世界中传播灵性力量时,你如何知道你是在做这种事情呢?要么是基于权威——接受其他某个人的敇令或训令——要么你自己感觉你是在传播。那么,让我们排除其他人的权威,因为那是幼稚的:如果其他某个人只是说“那样做”,你就那样做,那么毫无价值,不论那个人是谁;那时我们只是把我们自己当作小孩子对待,成了权威的工具;我们的行动就失去了活力,我们只是模仿的机器。


Now we might think that by attending achurch we feel elated, we feel full of vitality and a sense of well-being. I amnot insulting when I say that by taking to drink you feel the same, orattending a stimulating lecture; but why do you place ceremony as being muchmore important, more vital, more essential, than appreciation of somethingwhich really stimulates you? If you really examine it, it is much more thanappreciation of beauty which stimulates. You hope by attending a ceremony, bysome miraculous process your whole being is going to be cleansed. Now to me,such an idea is, if I may say so, really absurd. Such ideas are instruments oftrue exploitation. Whereas, really being integral, complete within oneself, youcannot look to someone else to cleanse your mind and heart. One has to discoverfor oneself. So, to me, this whole conception that ceremonies are going to giveyou spiritual understanding and attainment, is really the very thing whichevery so-called materialistic person thinks. He wants to be somebody in thisworld, he wants to have money, so he begins to accumulate, possess, exploit, tobe ruthless; and the man who wants to be somebody in the spiritual world doesexactly the same thing, only he calls it spiritual. That is, behind it all,there is this idea of gain; and to me such an idea, the desire to attain, is initself a limitation. And if you perform ceremonies as a means of gain, then allceremonies are but limitation. Or if you go and perform ceremonies asessential, as necessary, then you are merely accepting it on authority ortradition. Surely such a mind cannot understand what life is, what the wholeprocess of living is.

那么也许我们认为,通过参加教堂礼拜我们感到兴高采烈,我们感觉充满活力、感到幸福。我以下的说法不是出于无礼:通过喝酒或听一场励志演讲你会获得同样的感觉。而为什么你把仪式放在重要得多——更至关重要、更必需——的位置,而不赞赏其他让你得到激励的事情呢?如果你确实检查一下,你会发现,比起美的激励作用你更欣赏仪式。你希望通过出席仪式,通过某种不可思议的过程,你的整个身心会得到清理。目前对我来说,这样一种想法实在是——如果我可以这样说的话——荒谬的。这些观念其实是剥削的工具。然而,在确实内心完整的情况下,你不会指望别人来清洁你的心灵。一个人必须亲自发现。因此对我来说,“仪式会赋予你灵性理解和成就”这一观念,其实恰恰是所谓的唯物主义者的想法:他想要在这个世界上成名,他想要有钱,所以他开始积累、占有、剥削,变得残酷无情。而想要在灵性世界成名的人做的恰恰是同样的事情,只是他称之为灵性的。换言之,在这一切的背后,都存在这种“得”的想法;而对我来说,这样一种观念——这种“得”的渴望——本事就是一种局限。因而如果你作为一种“得”的手段而举行仪式,那么所有的仪式就仅仅成了局限。或者,如果你认为去参加仪式是必需的,那么你只是在权威或传统的层面上接受它。毫无疑问,这样一种心智无法理解生活是什么——整个的生活过程是什么。
   I am surprised that thisquestion should arise wherever I go, especially among those who are supposed tobe a little more advanced, whatever that may mean, who have been students ofphilosophy for years, who are supposed to be thoughtful. It but indicates thatthey have really sought substitutes. You are fed up with your old churches andinstitutions, and you want some new toy to play with, and you accept that newtoy without finding out if it has any value; you cannot find out if anythinghas value so long as you are merely seeking substitutes.

我很奇怪,无论我走到那里,特别是在那些被认为应该稍微进步的——无论这种说法意味着什么——学了多年哲学,被认为思想丰富的人们中间,这种问题会被提出来。你们厌烦了老的教会和机构,你们想要某种新的玩具来玩一玩,因而你们接受那种新的玩具而不看看它是否有价值。只要你只是在寻找替代品,你就无法发现任何东西是否有价值。
     Have I dealt withthat question completely, comprehensively? I would really like to discuss this withpeople, this idea of ceremonies. I have discussed with those who have recentlybecome priests, and they give me, not some valid reason, but some reason basedon authority, as "We have been told", or some kind of excuse fortheir action.

我完整、彻底地回答了那个问题吗?我确实愿意与人们一起讨论这种有关仪式的观念。我与最近要成为牧师的一些人进行过讨论,他们没有给我有根据的理由,而是给出某种基于权威的理由——诸如“我们被告知如何如何”——或者他们行动的某种原因。
     Now, there isanother aspect of it which is completely different. That is this idea that inceremony lies magic - not white and black magic, I am not talking about that -that the mystery of life is unfolded through a ceremony. You know, I havetalked with some Roman Catholics, and they will tell you that that istheir reason why they go to church. That is not the reason given by any of theceremonialists of the Theosophical bent, so do not use that club against meagain. Now life is mystery. There is something immense, magical, about life;but to pierce its veil is not to create spurious, unnatural things to discoverthe true mystery - and, to me, these sacerdotal ceremonies are unnatural. Theyare really a means of exploitation.

那么,还存在完全不同的另外一个方面,即,这种在仪式中蕴含魔力——不是指善或不善的法术,我不是指那种魔力——的观念,即,生活的奥秘被通过仪式展开。你们知道,我曾与一些罗马天主教徒谈过话,他们会告诉你,那就是他们去教堂的原因。这不是通神爱好者中的仪式主义者给出的原因,所以,请不要再用那个俱乐部反对我了。那么,生命是神秘的,在生命周围存在某种巨大的魔力;而穿透生活的面纱,发现真正的奥秘,不是通过制造出虚假、不自然的事物——而对我而言,这些宗教人士举行的仪式就是不自然的,它们其实成了一种剥削的工具。
     
Question: It has been suggested that the power that speaks through you belongsto the higher planes, and cannot be sent below the intuitional, so that we mustlisten rather with our intuition if we would get your message. Is that correct?

提问:有人暗示,通过你讲话的力量属于更高的层面,无法发送到直觉以下的层面,所以,如果我们想要明白你所传递的信息我们就必须用我们的直觉聆听。这种说法对吗?
Krishnamurti: What do you mean byintuition? What does intuition mean to you all? You say it is something whichwe feel instinctively without going through the process of logical reason: a"hunch", as the Americans would say. Now I really question whetheryour intuition is real or merely the glorified unconscious hopes; subtle,deceitful longings. You know, when you hear reincarnation spoken of, or youhear a lecturer talk about reincarnation, or you read of it in a book, and youjump to it and say, "I feel it is true, it must be", you call thatintuition. Is it really intuition, or is it the hope that you will have anotheropportunity to live next life; therefore you cling to it, and call itintuition? Wait a minute. I am not denying that there is intuition, but whatthe average person, what the usual person calls intuition, that is not true,that is something without reason, validity, without understanding behind it.
克里希那穆提:你说的“直觉”指的是什么?对你们大家来说直觉意味着什么?你说,那是我们本能地——不是通过逻辑推理的过程——而感觉到的某种东西;美国人会说,一种“预感”。那么,我确实质疑你们的直觉是否是真正的直觉,还是,不过是美化了的潜意识的希望——微妙的,乔装改扮的憧憬——而已。你知道,当你听到谈论转世再生——或者你听一场关于转世再生的演讲,或者你在书中读到它——你马上得出结论说:“我感到那是真实的,必定如此”;你称此为直觉。那是真正的直觉,还是,它是“你拥有另一个机会过下一生”的希望,因而你依附于它,称之为直觉呢?稍等一下。我不是否定存在直觉;但普通人所谓的直觉不是真正的直觉,那是某种不经过推理、没有活力、没有了解作为支撑的东西。
     
Now the questioner says that it has been suggested that the power that speaksthrough me belongs to the higher planes, and cannot be sent below theintuitional. Surely you understand what I am talking about. Don't you? Prettyobvious. Now wait a minute. It is easy to understand what I am talking about,but if you don't pursue it, carry it out in action, there is no understanding;and because you don't carry it out in action, you rather transfer it to theintuitional world, and therefore say it is suggested that I am speaking fromthe higher plane, and therefore you must go to your higher and try tounderstand what that means. In other words, although you understand what I amtrying to say, fairly well, it is difficult to put it into action; therefore,you say let us rather remove it to a higher plane, and from there we candiscuss. Is that not so? If you say, "I do not understand what you aretalking about", then there is a possibility of further discussion. I willthen try to explain it differently, so that we can discuss it, go into it,consider it together; but to start with the assumption that to understand meyou must go to the higher plane - surely there is something radically wrong inthat attitude.

那么提问者说:有人暗示,通过我讲话的力量属于更高的层面,无法发送到直觉以下的层面。毫无疑问,你们理解我正在谈的事情——难道你们不明白吗?——事情相当明显。请等一下。我所说的事情非常容易理解,但如果你们不追求它,不付诸行动,就不存在理解;而因为你没有付诸行动,你更愿意把它转到直觉的领域,因此说,有人暗示我是从更高的层面出发讲话,因而你必须去到更高的层面,从而理解所表达的意思。换言之,尽管你非常理解我所试图表达的,但难以付诸行动;所以你说,让我们把它移到更高的层面,在那里我们才能讨论。难道不是这样吗?如果你说“我不理解你所谈的事情”,那么就存在一种进一步讨论的可能;但如果从“要理解我说的话你必须到更高的层面”这一假设出发,在这种态度中肯定存在某种根本性的错误。
What is the higher plane, except that whichis thought? Why go any further? But do you not see, my point is we are startingwith something mysterious, something far away, and from that we try to find outthe obvious, the realities, and, therefore, there are bound to be greatdeceptions, great hypocritical actions, falseness. Whereas, if we start withthings that we do know, which are very simple to find out if you give yourthought, then you can go really far, infinitely. But it is absurd to start fromthe mysterious, and then try to relegate life to that mystery, which may beromanticism, false, imaginative. Such an attitude of mind which says, "Tounderstand you we must listen with our intuition", may be false, so thatis why I said your intuitions may be utterly false. How can you listen withsomething which may be false, which may be your hopes, predilections, longingsor dreams? Why not listen with your ears, with your reason? From that, when youknow the limitation of reason, then you can go - that is, to climb high youmust begin low; but you have already climbed high, and you have no further togo. That is what is the trouble with all of you. You have climbed the heightsintellectually; naturally your beings are empty, arrogant. Whereas, if youbegin near, then you will know how to climb, how to move infinitely.
除了思想的层面之外,什么是更高的层面呢?为什么要更进一步呢?你没有看到,我的观点是:我们在从某种神秘、遥远的事物出发,从那里出发我们试图发现显而易见的事物——现实——因此,必定存在极大的欺骗,极大的催眠行动和错误。然而,如果我们从我们确实知道的事物——发现它们是非常简单的,如果你用心的话——出发,那么你才真正能够走远,无限地远。而从神秘出发,然后试图把生活归入那种神秘——那可能是浪漫的、错误的或想象的——是荒谬的。这种说“要理解你说的话我们必须用我们的直觉去听”的态度可能是错误的,所以我说你的直觉是完全错误的。你如何能够用某种可能是错误的东西——那可能是你的期望、偏爱、渴望或梦想——去倾听?为什么不用你的耳朵、你的理智去听?从那里出发,当你了解了理智的局限时,你能够前进——就是说,要爬到高处你必须从低处起步;而你已经爬到高处了,你就无法前进了。这就是你们所有人遇到的麻烦。你们已经在知识上爬到了高处;自然你们的存在变得空虚、自大。然而,如果你们从近处开始,那么你们会知道如何攀爬,如何无限地行动。
You know, all these are means and ways of real exploitation. It isthe way of the priests - to complicate matters, when things are infinitelysimple. I won't go into what I have to say, I have explained that over and overagain; but to make it complicated, to coat it with all kinds of traditions orprejudices and not recognize your prejudices, that is where the hideousnesslies.
你们知道,这些其实都是剥削的手段和方式。宗教人士的方式就是:让事情复杂起来,当事情极其简单时。我不再详细说明我所说过的话,我已经一次又一次地解释过;但我还是要说,使事情变得复杂,给它披上各种传统或偏见的外衣,认识不到你们自己的偏见,是丑恶的渊薮。
     
Question: If a person finds the Theosophical Society a channel through which hecan express himself and be of service, why should he leave the Society?
提问:如果一个人发现通神学会是他可以展现自己和进行服务的一种渠道,他为什么要离开通神学会?
     
Krishnamurti: First of all, let us find out if it is so. Don't say why heshould or should not leave; let us go into the matter.
克里希那穆提:首先,让我们看看事情是否真的如此。先不要说他为什么应该或不应该离开;让我们深入探究一下这个事情。
What do you mean by a channel through which he can express himself?Don't you express yourself through business, through marriage? Do you or don'tyou express yourself when you are working every day for your livelihood, whenyou are bringing up children? And as it shows that you do not express yourselfthere, you want a Society in which to express yourself. Is that not it? Please,I hope I am not giving some subtle meaning to all this. So you say, "As Iam not expressing myself in the world of action, in the everyday world, whereit is impossible to express myself, therefore I use the Society to expressmyself." Is it so, or not? I mean, as far as I understand the question.
你说的“他能够展现他自己的渠道”是什么意思?难道你没有通过做生意、通过婚姻展现你自己吗?当你在每天上班工作以赚取生计,当你养育儿女时,难道你不是在展现你自己吗?而既然看起来好像你在那些地方没有展现你自己,所以你想要一种在其中展现自己的学会。不是这样吗?——请注意,我希望我不是在赋予这一切某种微妙的含义。——所以你说,“因为我在行动的领域、在日常生活的领域中没有展现我自己——在那些领域中展现我自己是不可能的——所以我利用学会来展现我自己。”是这样——我指的是,就我对问题的理解——还是不是这样?
How do you express yourself? Now as it is, at the expense of others.When you talk about self-expression, it must be at the expense of others.Please, there is true expression, with which we will deal presently, but thisidea of self-expression indicates that you have something to give, andtherefore the Society must be, created for your use. First of all, have you somethingto give? A painter, or a musician, or an engineer, or any of these fellows, ifhe is really creative, does not talk about self-expression; he is expressing itall the time; he is at it in the outside world, at home, or in a club. He doesnot want a particular society so that he can use that society for hisself-expression. So when you say "self-expression", you do not meanthat you are using the Society for giving forth to the world a particularknowledge or something which you have. If you have something, you give it. Youare not conscious of it. A flower is not conscious of its beauty. Itsloveliness is ever present.
你如何展现你自己?目前实际情况是,以牺牲其他人为代价。当你谈论自我展现时,肯定是以牺牲其他人为代价。请注意,存在真正的展现——我们马上就会谈到——但这种“自我展现”的想法意味着:你有某种东西要给与,所以,学会必须建立起来为你所用。首先,你有某种要给与的东西吗?一个画家——或一个音乐家,或一个工程师,或诸如此类的任何人——如果他真正具有创造性,他不谈论自我展现;他时时刻刻都在展现,他在外面的世界、在家里、在俱乐部里都在展现;他不需要某个特别的社团,以便他利用那个社团进行自我展现。所以,当你说“自我展现”时,你不意味着你利用通神学会给以世俗世界某种特别的知识或某种你拥有的东西;如果你拥有某种东西的话,你就给出来,你没有意识到你在给与。一朵花没有意识到它自身的美,而它的美好一直在呈现。
"Be of service to the world." Are you of service to theworld, really? Please, you know, I wish you could really think, honestly,frankly; then if you really think honestly, frankly, you will be of service tothe world - not in this extraordinary way. Let us find out if we are of serviceto the world. What is the world in need of at the present time - or at anytime, in the past or in the future? People who have the capacity to becompletely human; that is, people who are not bound up by their narrow circlesof thoughts and prejudices and the limitations of their self-consciousemotionalism.
“服务于世界”。你为世界服务,真的吗?请原谅,你知道,我希望你能够真正诚实地、真诚地思考;如果你能够真正诚实、坦诚地思考,你就是为世界服务——不是以这种超常的方式。让我们看看我们是否在为世界服务。目前——或在任何时候,在过去或在将来——世界需要什么?需要的是有能力成为完整的人的人,即,不被他们自身狭隘的思想圈子和偏见以及他们自身情绪束缚的人。
Surely, if you really want to help the world, you cannot belong toany particular sect or society, any more than you can belong to any particularreligion. If you say all religions are one, then why have any religion?Religions and nationalities really encage people, trammel them. This is shownthroughout the world, throughout history; and the world has come now to moreand more sects, more and more bodies enclosed by walls of beliefs, with theirspecial guides; and yet you talk of brotherhood! How can there be realbrotherhood when this possessive instinct is so deep, and so must lead to warsbecause it is based on nationalism, patriotism.
毫无疑问,如果你真正想要帮助世界,你不能属于任何特别的宗派或社团,更不用说属于任何特别的宗教。如果你说所有的宗教都是统一的,那么为什么要有任何宗教信仰?宗教和国籍其实是封闭、束缚人们。在世界的各个角落,贯穿整个历史,都表明了这一点。而目前世界分成了由信仰的围墙、用他们特别的导向分割成的越来越多的宗派、越来越多的团体;而你们谈论“四海之内皆兄弟”!当这种占有的本能如此深重,必定导致战争——因为这种本能是基于民族主义、爱国主义——时,如何能够存在真正的“四海之内皆兄弟”。
Surely your talk of brotherhood shows that you are not reallybrotherly. A man that is really brotherly, affectionate, does not talk aboutbrotherhood; you do not talk about brotherhood to your sister, or to your wife,there is a natural affection. And how can there be brotherhood, real unity ofhumanity, when there is exploitation? So to really help the world - as you dotalk about helping the world - if you would really help it to be free of allits commitments, its vested interests, its environments, then you will see thatyou are never talking about helping the world; then you do not put yourself ona pedestal to help somebody at a distance, lower down.

毫无疑问,你关于“四海之内皆兄弟”的谈论显示你并没有真正地做到“四海之内皆兄弟”。一个真正做到“四海之内皆兄弟”的、有爱的人,不会谈论“四海之内皆兄弟”:你没有对你的姐妹,或对你的妻子,谈论“四海之内皆兄弟”,存在一种自然而然的爱。当存在剥削时如何能够实现“四海之内皆兄弟”、人类的真正统一呢?所以,要真正地帮助世界——因为你确实谈到帮助世界——如果你想要真正地帮助它摆脱承诺、既得利益和环境的束缚,那么你会看到你决不会谈论帮助世界;那时,你不将自己放在某种台子上,隔着距离,俯下身去,帮助某个人。


Question: Do you approve of our invokingthe aid of the angels of the angelic kingdom, such as the Angel Raphael insickness, the Angel of Fire in the ceremony of cremation? Are they props andcrutches? (Laughter)
提问:你赞成我们呼唤天使王国天使的帮助——诸如在病中呼唤拉斐尔天使,在火葬仪式中呼唤火焰天使——吗?(笑声)
Krishnamurti: Please, some of you laugh atit, but you have your own particular prejudices, superstitions. You may nothave this "angelic" superstition. You have some others.
克里希那穆提:拜托,你们中有人笑这个问题,而你们都有自己特别的偏见、迷信——你可能没有这种对天使的迷信,但你可能有其他的迷信。
     
Now, let us not look at it from the point of view of invoking aid. First ofall, if you are normal, then there is a normal miracle taking place in theworld; but we are so abnormal that we want abnormal actions to take place. Ihave answered the question so often. All right. First of all, suppose you aresuffering, and you are cured, it may be by a doctor, it may be by an angel; ifyou do not know the cause of suffering, you will again become ill. Personally,I have dabbled a little in healing, but I want to do something else in life, toreally heal the mind and heart; that is, to let you discover for yourself thecause of suffering; and I assure you, no calling on angels, continualattendance on the doctor, is ever going to show you the cause of suffering. Youmay be healed symptomatically for the moment, but unless you really find outfor yourselves - nobody else can find out for you - what is the cause ofsuffering, you will again be ill. In discovering the cause you will becomehealthy.

好吧,让我们从呼唤帮助的视角去看这个问题。首先,如果你是正常人,那么世界上就正在发生一个正常的奇迹;但我们是如此反常,以至于我们想要反常的行动发生。我经常回答这种问题。好吧,首先,假设你在遭受病痛,然后你被治愈了——可能是被医生治愈的,可能是被天使治愈的——如果你不知道造成病痛的原因,你还会生病。我个人稍微涉猎了疗愈,但我想要在其他方面帮助生命,真正地治愈心灵,即,让你亲自发现遭受痛苦的原因;并且我向你保证,不拜访天使和持续去看医生,将会向你展示遭受痛苦的原因。你可以暂时消除症状,但除非你亲自发现——没有人能替你发现——遭受痛苦的原因是什么,你会再次生病。在发现病因的过程中,你变得健康。


Question: Have you sympathy for those whoadmire your beauty, but ignore your wisdom?
提问:你同情那些赞赏你的美而忽视你的智慧的人吗?
Krishnamurti: It is the same thing as theother question. Let us listen to you intuitively, and ignore yourwords. Only this is put differently. You know, wisdom is not to bebought. You cannot buy it from books. You cannot get it by listening. You maylisten to me for hundreds of years, but you are not going to be wise. Whatbrings wisdom is action. Action is wisdom; it cannot be separated. And becausewe have divided action from our thought, from our emotions, from ourintellectual capacity of reasoning, we are carried away by superficial things,and thereby are exploited.
克里希那穆提:这与另一个问题——让我们靠直觉聆听你,忽视你的话语——是一回事,这个问题只是采用不同的表达方式。你知道,智慧不是买来的:你无法从书本中买到它;你无法通过聆听得到它,你可能听我讲好几百年,但你不会变得有智慧。带来之后的是行动,行动就是智慧,两者不能分开。而因为我们将行动与我们的思想、与我们的情感、与我们的逻辑推理能力分开了,所以我们迷失于表面的事情,进而受到剥削。


Question: Do you consider that theTheosophical Society has finished its work in the world, and ought to retireinto solitary confinement?
提问:你认为通神学会已经在世界上完成了它的使命,应该退守一隅吗?
Krishnamurti: What do you think, you whoare its members? Is that not a much more apt question, than yours to me? Sirs,may I put it this way? Why do you belong to any Society? Why are youChristians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, and God knows what? Why do youexclude and seclude yourselves? "Because", you say, "thisparticular form of belief, this particular form of expression, of ideas, appealsto me; therefore I am going to subscribe myself to it." Or you belong toit because you hope to get something out of it: happiness, wisdom, office,position.
克里希那穆提:你们作为通神学会的会员怎么认为?比起你们向我提出的问题而言,这不是一个更恰当的问题吗?先生们,我可以这样说吗?你们为什么要属于任何社团?你们为什么是基督徒、通神论者、基督教科学家以及老天知道的任何什么社团?你们为什么把自己排除在外、封闭起来?“因为”,你说,“这种特别的信仰形式,这种特别的表达方式,这种特别的观念吸引了我;所以我把我自己奉献给它。”或者你属于它因为你希望从中掘取点什么:幸福、智慧、官职或地位。


So instead of asking me if the Society shouldretire, ask yourselves why you belong to it. Why do you belong to anything?There is this horrible idea that we want to be exclusive - the Western Club,the Eastern Golf Course, and all the rest of it. Exclusive hotels - you know.So likewise, we say we have something special, so do the Hindus, so do RomanCatholics. Every person in the world talks about having something special, sothey exclude themselves, and become the owners of that special thing, and sothereby create more divisions, more conflicts, more heartaches.
所以,不要问我是否通神学会应该退休,而要问你们自己,你们为什么属于它,你们为什么属于任何社团?存在这种可怕的想法:我们想成为独有的——西方俱乐部,东方高尔夫球场,及诸如此类的。专属酒店——你们知道。类似地,我们说我们拥有某种特别的东西。印度教徒这样说,罗马天主教徒这样说。世界上每个人都谈论拥有某种特别的东西,所以他们排除他们自己,变成了那种特别东西的拥有者,并由此制造更多的区分、更多的冲突和更多的心痛。


Besides, who am I to tell you if theSociety should retire into confinement? I wonder how many of you have reallyasked why you belong to it. If you are really a social body, not a religiousbody, not an ethical body, then there is some hope for it in the world. If youare really a body of people who are discovering, not who have found, if you area body of people who are giving information, not giving spiritual distinctions,if you are a body of people that have a really open platform, not for me or forsomeone special, if you are a body of people among whom there are neitherleaders nor followers, then there is some hope.
再者,我是何许人,要告诉你是否通神学会应该退守一隅?我想知道,你们中多少人真正问过“为什么你属于它”。如果你们真是一个社会团体,不是一个宗教团体,不是一个道德团体,那么它在世界上还存在某种希望。如果你们真是一个正在发现——不是已经发现——的人民团体,如果你们是一个给出信息——而不是给出灵性区别——的人民团体,如果你们是一个真正拥有开放平台——不是为了我或为了某个特别的人——的人民团体,如果你们是一个其中既不存在领导者也不存在追随者的人民团体,那么还存在某种希望。


But I am afraid you are followers, andtherefore you all have leaders. And such a society, whether it is this oranother, is useless. You are merely followers or merely leaders. In true spiritualitythere is no distinction of the teacher and the pupil, of the man who hasknowledge and the man who has not. It is you that are creating it, because itis this that you are seeking - continually to be distinctive. You cannot all ofyou be Sir Richard Something-or-other, so you want to be somebody in thisSociety, or in another society, or in heaven. Don't you see, if you reallythought about these things and were honest, you could be an extraordinarilyuseful body in the world. You could then really work for the intrinsic merit ofits ideas - not for some phantasy and emotionalism of your leaders. Then youwould examine any idea, and find out its true significance and work it out, andnot depend on the honours conferred for your services, on the enticement towork. That way leads to narrowness, bigotry, to more divisions and cruelties,and ultimately to utter chaos of thought.
但我恐怕你们是追随者,因此你们都有领导者。这样一种社团——不论它是这样或那样——是没有用处的。你们仅仅是追随者——或仅仅是领导者。在真正的灵性中不存在老师和学生——拥有知识的人和没有知识的人——的区别。正是你制造了区别,因为这就是你在寻求的:一直保持区分。你们不可能都成为理查德爵士,所以你想要在这个或那个学会中、或在天堂成为某个人物。难道你没有看到,如果你真正考虑这些事情并且诚实的话,你可以在世界上成为异常有用的人。那时你能够真正地为其想法的固有优点——而不是为了你们的领导人的幻想和多愁善感——而工作。那时你会检查任何想法,发现它的真正意义并且解决掉它,而不依靠对你服务的称赞,不依靠让你工作的诱惑——那种方式导向狭隘、偏执,导向更多的区分和残酷无情,并且最终导致思想的极端混乱。
     
Question: What is your attitude to the early teachings of Theosophy, theBlavatsky type? Do you consider we have deteriorated or advanced?
提问:你对通神学会的早期教诲——勃拉瓦茨基夫人型的教诲——是什么态度?你认为我们退化了还是进步了?
     
Krishnamurti: I am afraid I do not know, because I do not know what MadameBlavatsky's teachings are. Why should I? Why should you know of someone else'steachings? You know, there is only one truth, and therefore there is only oneway, which is not distant from that truth; there is only one method to thattruth, because the means are not distinct from the end.
克里希那穆提:我恐怕我不知道,因为我不知道勃拉瓦茨基夫人的教诲是什么。我为什么应该知道?为什么你应该知道别人的教诲?你们知道,真理只有一个,因而只存在一条道路,那条道路离真理并不遥远;只存在一种认识真理的方法,因为手段与目标不是分开的。
     
Now you who have studied Madame Blavatsky's and the latest Theosophy, orwhatever it is, why do you want to be students of books instead of students oflife? Why do you set up leaders and ask whose teachings are better? Don't yousee? Please, I am not being harsh, or anything of that kind. Don't you see? Youare Christians; find out what is true and false in Christianity - and you willthen find out what is true. Find out what is true and false in your environmentwith all its oppressions and cruelties, and then you will find out what istrue. Why do you want philosophies? Because life is an ugly thing, and you hopeto run away from it through philosophy. Life is so empty, dull, stupid,ignominious, and you want something to bring romanticism into your world, somehope, some lingering, haunting feeling; whereas, if you really faced the worldas it is, and tackled it, you would find it something much more, infinitelygreater than any philosophy, greater than any book in the world, greater thanany teaching or greater than any teacher.
那么你们学习了勃拉瓦茨基夫人的、以及最新的通神学,或无论学了什么,你们为什么想要做书本的学生而不想做生活的学生?你们为什么设立领导人,并且问“谁的教诲更好”?难道你没有看到?——请原谅,我不是吹毛求疵或诸如此类的。——难道你看不见吗?你们是基督教徒,请发现在基督教里什么是真的、什么是假的——并且你那时会发现什么是真实的。在你周围充满压迫和残酷的环境中发现什么是真的、什么是假的,接下来你会发现什么是真实的。你们为什么需要哲学?因为生活是一件丑恶的事情,所以你希望通过哲学逃避它。生活是如此空虚、呆板、愚蠢、可耻,所以你想要某种东西——某种希望,某种缠绵的感觉——来给你的世界带来浪漫;然而,如果你真正地如实面对世界,与它搏斗,你就会发现某种远比任何哲学、任何书本、任何教诲或任何老师更伟大的东西。
     
We have really lost all sense of feeling, feeling for the oppressed, andfeeling for the oppressor. You only feel when you are oppressed. So graduallywe have intellectually explained away all our feelings, our sensitiveness, ourdelicate perceptions, till we are absolutely shallow; and to fill thatshallowness, to enrich ourselves, we study books. I read all kinds of books,but never philosophies, thank goodness. You know, I have a kind of shrinkingfeeling - please, I put it mildly - when you say, "I am a student ofphilosophy", a student of this, or that; never of everyday action, neverreally understanding things as they are. I assure you, for your happiness, foryour own understanding, for the discovery of that eternal thing, you mustreally live; then you will find something which no word, no picture, nophilosophy, no teacher can give.
我们丧失了所有的感觉——对被压迫者的感觉,和对压迫者的感觉;只有当你受到压迫时你才有感觉。所以,逐渐地,我们在理智上把我们所用的感觉——我们的敏感,我们微妙的感知——解释掉了,直到我们变得无比浅薄;而为了充实那种浅薄,丰富我们自己,我们研究书本。我读各种各样的书,但从来不读哲学书,谢天谢地。你知道,当你说“我是学习哲学的学生、这个或那个的学生”,而不是日常行动的学生,从来不真正地如实理解事物时,我有一种“萎缩”的感觉——请注意,我以温和的方式表达。我向你保证,为了你的幸福,为了你自身的理解,为了发现那种永恒的事物,你必须真正地生活;那时你会发现某种没有任何言辞和图画能够描绘,没有任何哲学和老师能够给予的东西。
     
Question: Are the teachings which Theosophy gives concerning evolution of anyconsequence for the purpose of the growth of the soul?
提问:通神学会给予的关于进化的教诲对于心灵的成长具有任何重要性吗?
     
Krishnamurti: What do you mean by evolution, sirs? As far as I can make out,growing from the unessential to the essential. Is it? Growing from ignorance towisdom. Is that not so? Nobody shakes his head. All right. What do you mean byevolution? Gaining more and more experience, more and more wisdom, more andmore knowledge, more and more and more and more; infinitely more and more. Thatis, you go from the unessential to the essential; and that essential becomesthe unessential the moment you have attained, you have reached it. Is that notso?
克里希那穆提:先生们,你们说的“进化”是什么意思?我所能想到的是:从非根本的成长到根本的。不是吗?从无知成长到智慧。不是这样吗?没人摇头。好吧。你们说的“进化”意味着什么呢?获得越来越多的经验,越来越多的智慧,越来越多的知识,越来越多、越来越多,无限地多。也就是说,你从非根本的东西出发认识到根本的东西;而你一旦获得了、认识到了根本的东西,那种根本的东西就变成了非根本的东西。难道不是这样吗?
     
Are you too tired? Is it too late? Please, you have to think with me. This ismy second talk during the day; but if you do not think with me, it will berather difficult for me. I have to push against a wall.
你们太累了吗?时间太晚了?请注意,你们必须和我一起思考。这是我在今天的第二次谈话;如果你们不同我一起思考,对我来说会更加困难——我不得不推一堵墙。
     
You consider something as essential today, and go after it, and get it; andtomorrow that thing becomes unessential, and you say, "I have learntthat." That which you had thought essential has become the unessential, soyou go on and on and on, and you call that growth, evolution; getting more andmore, discerning more and more between the essential and the unessential - andyet there is no such thing as the essential and the unessential. Is there?Because that which you think is the essential today becomes the unessential tomorrow,for you want something else.
今天你把某个事物看作是根本的事物,并追求它、得到它;而明天那个东西变成非根本的,但你说“我已经了解了那个东西”。你认为根本的东西变成非根本的东西,所以你一直进行;并且你称其为成长、进化:在根本事物和非根本事物之间明白越来越多、领悟越来越多。
然而不存在“根本事物和非根本事物”这么一回事——存在吗?——因为你今天认为是根本的事物,明天就变成了非根本的事物,所以你就追求其他某个东西。
     
Let me put it differently. You see some pleasurable object you think you wantto possess, and you possess it: then satisfied, you move to another thing. Itmay be some emotional craving, desire, and you get that. You want an idea, andyou pursue that, and get it. And ultimately you want to reach God, truth,happiness; and the man who wants happiness, God, truth, you consider spiritual,and the man who wants a hat or a tie, or whatever it is, you call mundane,materialistic. The unessential is the hat, and the essential is the God ortruth. What have we done? We have merely changed the object of our desires. Wehave said, "Well, I have had enough hats, enough cars, enough houses, andI want something else", and you go after that and get that, and then youfinish with it and want something else; so you proceed gradually till youultimately want something which you call God, and then you think you havereached the ultimate. All you have done is played with your desires, and thisprocess of continual choosing you call evolution. Is it so or not?

让我换另外一种方式来表达这个事情:你看到某种令人快乐的、你认为你想要占有的目标,然后你得到了它;在满足了之后,你转而追求另一个事物。目标可能是某种感情方面的渴望、欲望,然后你如愿以偿。你想要某种理想,你追求那种理想,实现了它。而最终你想要达到上帝、真理和幸福。而想要幸福、上帝和真理的人,你认为是灵性的;想要一顶帽子——或一条领带,无论想要的是什么物件——你称其为世俗的、唯物主义的。非根本的事物是帽子,而根本的事物是上帝或真理。我们做了些什么?我们只是变换了欲望的目标。我们曾说过,“嗯,我已经有了足够多的帽子、足够多的汽车、足够多的房子,因而我想要其他某个东西”;然后你就追求那个东西,得到那个东西;完成了那件事情之后,你想要其他某个东西;如此你逐渐地前进,直到你最终想要某种你称为上帝的东西,那时你认为达到了终极目标。你所做的全部事情就是玩弄自己的欲望,并且这种持续选择的过程你称之为进化。那是真的进化吗?
     
Comment from audience: At one time one individual is satisfied with one thingand another individual with another.
听众发表意见:在某个时候一个人满足于某个事物,而另一个人满足于另一个事物。
     
Krishnamurti: But surely the desire is the same thing. Desire is the samewhether it is the desire for a hat or for God. There is the desire behind it;wanting, until we have gone through the range of our desire; whereas, if wereally understood the significance of each object which desire is runningafter, that it is neither essential nor unessential, we would then understandthe true significance of that object; and evolution then has a differentmeaning - not this perpetual attainment, gaining, all the time succeeding.
克里希那穆提:但毫无疑问同样的事物是欲望。无论是对帽子还是对上帝的欲望,都是同样的。其背后都是欲望,一直在想要什么,直到我们经历了所有的欲望。然而,如果我们真正理解了欲望所追逐的每个目标的意义——它既不是根本的,也不是非根本的——那时我们就会理解那种目标的真正意义,并且那时进化具有一种不同的含义——不是这种持续的达成、获得,一直在取得成功。
     
Comment: Will we stop desire?
观众提问:我们将停止欲望吗?
     
Krishnamurti: Surely not. If you stop desire, then - goodbye! It is death. Howcan you stop desire? It is not a thing you turn off and on. Why do you want tostop desire? Because it gives you pain. If it gives you pleasure you continue,you don't ask me; but the moment it gives you pain you say, "I had betterstop it." Why do you have pain? Because there is no understanding. If youunderstand a thing, then there is no pain.
克里希那穆提:当然不是。如果你停止欲望,那么,再见!那就是死亡。你如何能够停止欲望呢?它不是某种你能关闭和打开的事物。你为什么想要停止欲望?因为它给你痛苦。如果它给你快乐,你就会继续,你不会问我这个问题;但它一给你痛苦,你就说“我最好终止它”。你为什么有痛苦?因为不存在理解。如果你理解了某个事物,那么就不存在痛苦。
     
Comment: Can you give an illustration of that point? That pain stops when youunderstand it.
观众提问:你可以描述一下那种境界吗?那种当你理解它痛苦就停止的境界。
     
Krishnamurti: Cannot you think it out? Perhaps I will give it later. Let me putit all differently. We are used to this idea of killing out desire,disciplining desire, controlling it, subjugating it. To me, this way ofthinking is unhealthy, unnatural. You desire a hat or a coat or something - Ido not know what - and you multiply desires because the object which the desireis pursuing does not give you satisfaction. Is that not so? So you pursue it,but you change to another object. Now, why is your desire pursuing one thingafter another? Because you do not understand the very object which the desireis pursuing; you do not see the full significance of the desire for an object.You are more concerned with the gain and with the loss, rather than with thesignificance of this pursuit. Am I explaining? Please, one must think about it.
克里希那穆提:为什么你不能把它考虑清楚?可能我会在后面给出描述。让我以完全不同的方式来表述。我们习惯于这种“消灭欲望、约束欲望、控制欲望、征服欲望”的观念。对我来说,这种思维的方式是不健康的、不自然的。你渴望一顶帽子、一艘船或者什么——我不知道你渴望什么——而因为欲望的目标没有给你满足,你加倍渴望。难道事情不是这样吗?以如此方式你追求那个目标,但你改追另一个目标。那么,为什么你的欲望追求一个又一个目标呢?因为你恰恰不理解欲望所追求的事物;你没有看到“追求某个目标的欲望”的全部意义。你更关心得与失,而不关心这种追求的意义。我在有所解释吗?请注意,一个人必须考虑这种追求。
     
Question: Does what you wrote in "At the Feet of the Master" stillhold good?
提问:你在《在大师的脚下》中所写的仍然是好的吗?
     
Krishnamurti: All right, sirs. What does the question imply? What are theimplications in that question? Do I still believe in the Masters, eh? Isn'tthat so? And naturally, if I believe in them, I must still believe in theteachings, and so on. Let us find out. Let us look at it quite openly, not asif I were attacking your Masters, whom you have to protect.
克里希那穆提:好吧,先生们。这个问题意味着什么呢?在这个问题中隐含着什么?我仍然相信大师,嗯?难道不是这个意思吗?而自然地,如果我相信他们,我必定仍然相信那些教诲,如此等等。让我们找出事情的真相。让我们以非常开放的方式——不是好像我在攻击你们的大师,你在保护他们——去看。
     
Now, why do you want a Master? You say we need him for a guide - the same thingwhich the spiritualists say - the same thing the Roman Catholics say - the samething everybody says in the world. This applies to everyone, not to youparticularly. To guide you to what? That is the next question, obviously, isn'tit? You say, "I must have a guide to happiness, to truth, to liberation,to nirvana, to heaven" - you must have somebody to lead you to that.(Please, I am not a clever lawyer trying to browbeat you; I am trying to helpyou to find out for yourselves. I am not trying to convert you to anything.)

那么,你为什么需要大师?你说,我们需要他是为了有个向导:灵修主义者同样会这么说,罗马天主教徒同样会这么说,世界上每个人都会这么说。这适用于每个人,而不是特别适用于你。指导你去哪里?很显然,这是下一个问题,难道不是吗?你说,“我必须有个通向幸福、真理、解放、涅槃或天堂的向导”,你必须有个人领你到那里。(请注意,我不是一个聪明的、试图恫吓你的律师;我在试图帮助你亲自发现。我不是在试图让你相信任何东西。)
Now, if you are interested in the discoveryof truth, then guides are of no importance, are they? It does not matter - youwould pick anybody. How do you know he is going to help you to truth? It may bethat the man who sweeps the road will help you - your sister, neighbour,brother, anybody; so why do you pay particular attention to your guides? Oh,don't shake your heads. I know all about it. You say, "Oh yes, quiteright, it is so; and yet you are all seeking probationary discipleship,distinctions, initiations. So to you what matters is, not truth, but who is theguide who will lead you. Isn't that it? No? Then please tell me what.

那么,如果你有兴趣发现真理,向导不重要——他们重要吗?——你选择任何一个人作为向导都无关紧要;你怎么知道他会帮助你看到真理?清除道路的人——你的姐妹、邻居、兄弟或任何人——也许会帮助你;所以,你为什么特别注意你的向导呢?——啊,请不要摇头。我了解事情的全部。——你说,“嗯,是的,非常正确,事情就是如此。”然而你们都在寻求试用性质的师徒关系、区分和启蒙;所以对你们来说重要的,不是真理,而是引领你的向导是谁。难道不是这样吗?不是?那么请告诉我是什么。
     
Comment: You said in "At the Feet of the Master" we had to bedesireless, and now you say we have...
听众意见:你在《在大师脚下》中说,我们必须是无欲无求的,而现在你说,我们… …
     
Krishnamurti: Wait a minute sir. Yes, it is a contradiction. I hope there willbe lots of contradictions. There is a lady who said "No." She shookher head. I would like to find out.
克里希那穆提:等一下,先生。是的,那是一种矛盾的说法。我希望存在很多的矛盾。有位夫人摇头说,“不。”我想要找出真相。
     
Comment: I forget exactly what your question was with regard to the Master. Ifeel it is not the way I personally look to the Master. I feel that just as Ilook to you to help me to understand and discover, so the Master will help usto understand and discover.
听众意见:我忘了关于大师你的问题是什么。我感觉那不是我个人看待大师的方式。我感觉就像我指望你帮助我去理解和发现一样,所以,大师会帮助我们去理解和发现。


Krishnamurti: That is, to most of you theMaster is the guide. You cannot deny that, can you? You cannot say, "No, Ido not care who will lead us to it."
克:那就是,对你们多数人而言,大师就是向导。你无法否认这一点,你能否认吗?你不能够说,“不,我不关心谁将引导我们。”
     
Comment: I don't think the important thing is the guide; not the special guide.
听众意见:我不认为重要的是向导;不是特别的向导。
     
Krishnamurti: You don't have special guides?
克里希那穆提:你没有特别的向导吗?
     
Comment: That is why we come to hear you.
听众:这就是我们来这里听你讲话的原因。
     
Krishnamurti: Please, try to find out what I am talking about. Do not say,"We don't want Masters, guides", and all that; let us find out. Sodon't say, "This does not apply to me." If you really think about thething I am talking about, it will apply to you, because we are all in the samecircle.
克里希那穆提:请努力发现我正在谈的事情。不要说“我们不想要大师、向导”及诸如此类的;让我们找到真相。所以,不要说“这对我不适用”。如果你真正考虑了我正在谈的事情,它将适用于你,因为我们都是在同一个圈子里面。
     
So, if you want to find out what truth is, as I said this morning, if you ask aguide, then you must know, and he must know, both of you must know what truthis. But if you know what truth is, and you have a dim perception of it, thenyou will ask nobody. Then you are not concerned whether you are a probationarypupil, or an initiate with special honours, and all the rest of it. You wanttruth, not distinctions. What do you say to that?
所以,如果你想要发现真理是什么——如同我今天上午所说的——如果你询问某个向导,那么,你必须知道,并且他必须知道,你们两个都必须知道,真理是什么。但如果你知道真理是什么,你对它有一种模糊的感知,那么你不会问任何人。那时你不关心是否你是一个试用期的学生或带着特殊荣耀的新人及诸如此类的。你想要的是真理,而不是区分。你对此有什么要说的?
     
Comment: I would say that it is with many not the desire for distinction, butthe desire for understanding.
听众意见:我会说,对于大多数人而言,不是渴望区分,而是渴望理解。
     
Krishnamurti: You are not trying to protect. I am not trying to knock down.Please, let us discuss together with that attitude. How can you haveunderstanding when you are a pupil, a distinguished person, a distinctiveentity with more special privileges than someone else?
克:你不是在尽力保护;我不是在试图推倒。请让我们以这种态度一起讨论。当你是一个学生,一个杰出的人——一个相比其他人拥有更多特权的与众不同的人——时,你如何能够理解?
     
Comment: I do not feel that I have any special privileges; only what I make myself. I donot feel that anyone confers privileges upon me.
听众意见:我没感到我有任何特权;只是我自己所造成的。我没有感到任何人授予我特权。
     
Krishnamurti: I am sorry I am not explaining fully. All right. What is it butdistinction, self-aggrandizement, when you are somebody's special pupil? Youwill say, "No. That will help me to truth. That step is necessary towardstruth." Is that not so? So that step is merely the accentuation andexaggeration of self-consciousness. To understand, there must be less and lessof the "I" consciousness, not more and more. Is that not so? Tounderstand anything there must be no prejudice; there must be no consciousness of"my path" and "your path", "my" this and"your" that. Anything that accentuates the "my" idea mustbe a hindrance. Must itnot?
克:抱歉我没有完全地解释清楚。好吧。当你是某个人的特别的学生时,那只是区分、自我夸大吗?你会说,“不。那会帮助我认识到真理。那是通向真理的必要步骤。”难道不是这样吗?所以,那一步只是自我意识的强调和夸张。要理解,必须存在少之又少的“我”意识,而不是多而又多。难道不是这样吗?要理解任何事情,都必须不存在偏见;必须不存在“我的道路”和“你的道路”、“我的”这个和“你的”那个的意识。强调“我的”观念的任何事物,必定是一种障碍。难道可能不是障碍吗?
     
Comment: We are taught there are Masters.
听众意见:我们被教导存在大师。
     
Krishnamurti: Well, I cannot enter into that. If you say, "It isauthority; we are told", then there is nothing more to be said; but doesthat satisfy you all?
克:好了,我不能够深入探究那种说法了。如果你说“它是权威,我们被告知”,那么就没什么更多的话要说了;但是,那种说法让你们所有人满意吗?
     
Comment: No.
听众回应:不满意。
     
Krishnamurti: For the moment, forget everything you have learned here about theMasters, disciples, initiation. If you were really frank, you would see it. Itis merely that everyone wants to be something, and this process of wanting tobe somebody is used and exploited.
克:此刻,请忘记你在这里学到的关于大师、徒弟和启蒙的一切事情。如果你确实是真诚的,你会看清其中的真相:真相只是每个人想要成为什么,并且这个“想要成为某种人”的过程被利用了。
     
What is this consciousness which we call the "I"? When are youconscious of it? (Please, I must be brief, because I must stop.) What is thisconsciousness? When are you conscious of yourself? When there is this conflict,when there is a hindrance, a frustration. Remove all frustration, remove allhindrances, then you do not say "I". Then you are living. It is onlywhen you are conscious of pain that you are conscious of the body. So whenthere is pain, emotionally or intellectually, then you are conscious assomething separate.
我们称为“我”的这种意识是什么呢?我们在何时意识到它?(请注意,我必须简明扼要,因为我必须停下了。)这种意识是什么?你何时意识到你自己?当存在这种冲突时,当存在某种障碍、某种挫折时。去掉所有的挫折,去掉所有的障碍,那时你不说“我”如何如何;那时你在生活。只有当你意识到疼痛的时候你才意识到身体的存在,所以,当存在情绪方面或理智方面的痛苦时,你才作为某种分离的事物变得有意识。


Now we have accentuated it, brought about acondition in the mind that we call the "I", and we take that as afact and desire to proceed with the expansion of that consciousness into truth- enlarge that consciousness more and more, through probation and initiationsand all the rest of it, which indicates you have a false cause. That is, the"I" is not reality. You have a false cause, and you have the falseanswers, as initiations, as expansion of consciousness of the "I; andhence you say somebody is necessary to help you to realize truth, to expandyour consciousness; or you say, "The world needs a plan, and there arewiser people than I; therefore I must become their instrument to help theworld." Therefore you establish a mediator between them and yourself -somebody who knows and somebody who does not know. And therefore, you merelybecome an instrument of exploitation. I know you all smile and disagree withme; but please, it does not matter. I am not here to convince you, or you toconvince me. If you look at it with reason you will see.
在这种情况下,我们已经强调了它,在心智中制造出一种我们称为“我”的情况,并且我们把它当做事实,渴望把那种意识扩展到真理——越来越扩大那种意识,通过实习和启蒙及诸如此类的。这种过程显示,你的起因是错误的,即,“我”不是真实的存在。你有了错误的起因,你就得到错误的答案——如启蒙,如“我”的意识的扩展——所以你说某种人对于帮助你实现真理、扩展你的意识是必要的;或者你说“时间需要某种规划,存在比我更有智慧的人;所以我必须变成他们的工具去帮助世界”。所以你在他们和你自己——知道的人和不知道的人——之间设立了一个调停者。所以,你只是变成了被利用的工具。我知道你们都在笑,不同意我的说法;但请注意,这无关紧要;我来这里不是要说服你们相信什么,你们也不是要说服我相信什么。如果你用理智去观察,你会看到。
     
So you establish a plan known to the few, and you merely become an instrumentof action, to carry out orders. Take, for instance, if the Masters said,"War is right." I am not saying that they have said it. You know inthe last war how everybody said, "God is on our side", and we alljumped at it. Now, if you, as an individual, begin to really think, you willsee war is a pernicious thing, And if you really thought of it, you could notjoin a war. But you say, "I do not know. The plan says there must be a warand good will come out of evil, so let me join." In other words, youreally cease to think. You are merely instruments to be driven, cannon fodder.Surely that is not spiritual, all those things. So please, with regard towhether I believe in Masters or not, to me it is of very little importance.Whether you believe in a Master or not has nothing to do with spirituality.What is the difference between a medium that gets messages, and you that getmessages from the Masters?
所以,你们规划了一种少数人知道的蓝图,并且你们只是变成了行动的工具,去执行命令。举个例子,如果大师说“战争是正确的”——我不是说他们这样说过;你们知道,在上次战争中每个人如何说“上帝在我们一边”的——我们就会立即踊跃奔赴前线。
那么,如果你——作为个人——开始真正地思考,你会看到战争是一种有害的事情;如果你真正地考虑它,你不会加入战争。但是你说,“我不知道。规划说必定存在一场战争,并且善是从恶中生发出来的,所以我要参战。”换句话说,你其实停止了思考;你只是成了被驱使的工具,炮灰。毫无疑问,那不是灵性的,那一切都不是。
所以,关于我是否相信大师,对我而言是无关紧要的。你是否相信大师与灵性没有任何关系。在“一个得到信息的媒介”和“从大师得到信息的你”之间的区别是什么?
     
Comment: Are we to believe in nothing?
听众反应:我们应该不信仰任何事物吗?

Krishnamurti: Please, just a minute. Please, you see I have been talking aboutthis. Why do you want belief? (Laughter) Please do not laugh, because everybodyis in that position. We all want beliefs as props, as something to sustain us.Surely, the more and more you have beliefs, the less and less you have ofstrength, of inward richness. I am so sorry I cannot go into all this. It ishalf-past eight, but I would like to say this. Wisdom, or understanding, is notto be got at by holding on to things; holding on to your beliefs or ideas.Wisdom is born when you are really moving, not anchored to any particular formof belief; and then you will discover that it does not matter whether theMasters exist or do not exist, whether your Society is essential to the worldor not. These things are of very little importance. Then you are bringing abouta new civilization, a new culture in the world.
克:拜托,等一下。请注意,你看到我刚才谈过这点。你为什么想要信仰?(笑声)请不要笑,因为每个人都处于那种境地,我们都想要信仰作为支撑——作为某种支持我们的东西。毫无疑问,你拥有越来越多的信仰,你就拥有越来越少的力量和内在丰富。我很抱歉我无法深入这一切,八点半了。但我想要说这一点:智慧——或理解——不是通过握住事物、握住你的信仰或观念而得到的;智慧诞生在当你真正动起来,不心系任何特别形式的信仰的时候;那时你会发现,大师是否存在或是否不存在,你的社团是否对世界是必要的,是无关紧要的,这些事情没有太多的重要性。那时你在世界上带来一种新的文明、一种新的文化。
     
You know, it is most extraordinary! Dr. Besant said to all the members, and Iused to hear this very often, "We are preparing for a World Teacher. Keepan open mind. He may contradict everything you think, and say itdifferently." And you have been preparing, some of you, for twenty yearsor more; and it does not matter whether I am the Teacher or not. No one cantell you, naturally, because no one else can know except myself; and even thenI say it does not matter. I have never contradicted it. I say, "Leave it.That is not the point." You have been preparing for twenty years or more,and very few of you have really an open mind. Very few have said, "Let usfind out what you are talking about. Let us go into it. Let us discover if whatyou say is true or false, irrespective of your label." And after twentyyears you are in exactly the same position as you were before.
你们知道,那是极其不同寻常的!贝赞特博士对全体会员说,我过去常常听到这些话:“我们在准备迎接一个世界导师。请保持一种开放的心智。他可能反对你所想的任何事情,以不同的方式说出来。”而你们中有些人已经准备了二十或更多年。我是否是那个世界导师不重要。自然地,没有人能告诉你,因为除了我自己之外没有其他人能够知道;甚至此时我说那不重要;我从来没有反对那种说法,我说,“别管它,那不是关键所在。”你们已经准备了二十或更多年,而你们中极少有人真正拥有一种开放的心智;极少数人说过“让我们发现你所说的是什么;让我们深入探究它;让我们发现你所说的是真的还是假的,不管你的标签是什么。”在过了二十年之后你们仍然是停留在原来的境地。


You have innumerable beliefs, you havecertainties, and your knowledge, and you are not really willing to examine whatI am saying. And it seems such a waste of time, such a pity that these twentyyears and more should go wasted, and you find yourselves exactly where youwere, only with new sets of beliefs, new sets of dogmas, new sets ofconditions. I assure you, you cannot find truth, or liberation, or nirvana, orheaven, or whatever you like to call it, by this process of attachment.
你们拥有无数的信仰,你们拥有确定无疑的东西和你们的知识,因而你们其实不愿意检验我所说的事情。那好像是纯粹浪费时间,非常遗憾二十或更多年被浪费了,你们发现你们自己还是在原地踏步,只是有了新的信仰、新的教条、新的制约。我向你们保证,通过这种依附的过程,你无法发现真理或解放、涅槃、天堂,或无论你喜欢称之为什么。
That does not mean that you all must becomedetached, which only means you become withered, but try to find out frankly,honestly, simply, whether what you are holding with such grim possessivenesshas any significance, whether it has any value; and to find out if it has anyvalue there cannot be the desire to cling to it. And then when you really lookat it in that way, you will find something which is indescribable. Then youwill discover something real, lasting, eternal. Then there will be no necessityfor a teacher and a pupil. It will be a happy world when there are no pupilsand no teachers.
那并不意味着你们都必须变成离群索居的——离群索居只意味着你们变得枯萎——而是要努力以真诚、简单的方式去发现,你所抓住的这种冷酷的占有物是否有任何意义,它是否有任何价值;而要发现它是否有任何价值,就不能存在依附于它的渴望。而当你以那种方式真正看它时,你会发现某种无法描述的东西;那时你会发现某种真正的、持久的、永恒的东西。那时老师或学生都将是不必要的。当不存在学生和老师时,那会是一个幸福的世界。
克的冥想
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